Muslims: Take the Fabio Challenge!
Saturday, October 13th, 2007The Challenge: If you believe that women should be required to cover their hair in order to be treated like people instead of objects, please explain to me why Fabio does not have to cover his long, shiny, attractive to women, blond hair. “Because God/Allah said so” does not count as an answer.
Remember, I am an atheist, and as such, any appeals to divine authority will be every bit as convincing to me as “Because the Tooth Fairy said so.” If your God is really all that great, surely he would have prescribed rules that actually make sense in the real world, right? He wouldn’t just spout a bunch of nonsensical or abusive bullshit for you to live your life by, right? So if your God and his religion are any good, you should be able to give me some real, concrete, logical reasons to follow the rules and regulations that he expects you and the people who live in your societies to follow.
In case anyone is unaware, Fabio is a male model, often pictured on the covers of romance novels, who is famous for his long, shiny, attractive to women, blond hair.
So, why should women have to “earn” their humanity by covering their heads, while Fabio is under no such obligation? And why on earth is hair (but only women’s hair) so unspeakably provocative that it can’t be shown in public, anyway?
71 Responses to “Muslims: Take the Fabio Challenge!”
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I can’t even comment on all the insanely outrageous things religious extremists can justify with their “god/allah says so” arguments–the whole subject makes me too depressed.
Even the thought of Fabio’s cheerful golden locks hidden under a head scarf can’t quite cheer me up.
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Crabby — how about a bunch of Muslim men wearing head scarves and singing the “Hair” song?
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Okay, yeah, now THAT would cheer me up! Can they be riding special bicycles when they do it?
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Absolutely!
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JB says:
October 20th, 2007 at 4:55 pmActually, special bicycles for men would make sense! The traditional designs of bicycles are such that continuous bicycle usage is very, very bad for the male anatomy and restricting men’s access to bicycles might be for our own good!
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Muneeraah and seyhan =] says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:13 pmImbred
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Muneeraah and seyhan =] says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:16 pmi seriously think you have issues cassie, i really don’t understand what you have against muslims, they have beliefs just like any other religion if yu dnt like it DON’T BE a muslim. Simple butt yur just bored arn’t yu darling? yu only listen to the media and don’t think, you relly dnt have a mind of yur own do yu. i hope you find the right path. don’t say yu alredy have, otherwise yu’ll proove that you demmented
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akhtar says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:21 pmcassie ur jus hatin on our religion right coz its the fastest growing aliie and dat ders not much athiests right.
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In other words, you got nothin’. Too bad, so sad.
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akhtar says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:34 pmno i have a lot but u keep changin subject stick too one plzz
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akhtar says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:35 pmand jus try not challanging me wid the quran
i have too much proof wid dat -
Muneeraah and seyhan =] says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:38 pmahha akhtar i LUVV YU
yu know everyfing bout islam yur like a dictionary to me HAHAA =] 
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Layla says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:40 pmI understand that you want answers, but before being so judgemental perhaps you should step back, research into it and learn to respect the beliefs of Muslims such as myself. First of all, it is not just the hair that muslim women cover. They have to dress modestly, covering their arms and legs and not wearing clothes that are too tight or reveal their shape, so that men do not admire them for their beauty but so that they can be seen as intelligent people who are equal to men. Secondly, the same applies to men- they should dress modestly and be admired for their personality- generally, men do not make a big deal of their hair and they keep it simple, whereas women often have long hair and straighten/curl it and even use it as a flirting tool-which is why they wear a headscarf and men do not. If you are going to argue that some men do make a big deal of their hair, then there is a cap which some religious muslims wear to cover their heads as well, and also religious men grow beards. The point is not that muslim women wear headscarves and men do not; the point is that men and women should both dress modestly and be seen as equals and notice eachother’s personalities not looks. So, to finish, I think I have explained this pretty well and would appreciate it if you removed the following: ‘Incidentally, I see that so far, no Muslims have answered my Fabio Challenge. Gee, I wonder why that could be?’ from your other page- you wouldn’t want to be telling people lies now, would you?
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SEYHAN =] says:
February 23rd, 2008 at 6:17 pmBAAA BAAAA BAAAA…OMDZZ I SWR U R SUCH A SHEEP! BAA BAAA
AHHAAAHHA U FOLLOW TEH MEDIA..WAHEVAA DEY SAY U JUS BEHIND FOLLOWIN!..
AHHH ITS SUCH A SHAME HOW PPL COULD BE SO JUDGMENTAL!..WHY U GOT A GRUDGE AGAINST ISLAM?..ISIT COZ U KNW ITS A TRUE RELIGION AND U CNT BARE THE FACT THAT ITS ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGIONS IN THIS WORLD.What do Muslims believe?
Muslims believe in the One, Unique, Incomparable, Merciful God - the Sole Creator and Sustainer of the Universe; in the Angels created by Him; in the Prophets through whom His revelations were brought to humankind; in the Day of Judgment and in individual accountability for actions; in God’s complete authority over destiny, be it good or bad; and in life after death. Muslims believe that God sent His messengers and prophets to all people and God’s final message to humanity, a reconfirmation of the eternal message and a summing up of all that had gone before, was revealed to the Last Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) through the Archangel Gabriel.
Now you tell me abuot ATHEISM!!..u cnt can u??..wah a shame i was soo interested aswell..ahh poor me:( BOOHOO
Look around you: at the beautiful sunset on a summer evening, at the moon and the stars on a cloudless night, at the water that you drink, at the trees and how they grow from tiny seeds.
Think about yourself: your eyes with which you see, your ears with which you hear, your tongues with which you taste and talk, your hands and your feet, your heart and your brain.
Consider how these things are so complex in themselves and yet work together in such perfect harmony.
From the movement of the galaxies to the complexities of the interaction of molecules, from the dynamics of eco-systems to the intricacies of DNA, all lead to the obvious fact of the existence of the great Wisdom, Knowledge and Power that allows our Universe to exist and function.
To any perceptive person the existence and intricacy of creation is conclusive proof of the Existence, Knowledge and Wisdom of the One who creates, organises and sustains it.
Most people naturally recognise the existence of the Creator, and we find reference to the Creator in all cultures and religions. Even the atheists, communists and (disbelieving) scientists cannot avoid this reality, but avoid the term ‘creator’, for phrases like ‘Mother Nature’ and ‘the amazing way nature has designed…’
How strange in the face of this, that many today reject the belief in the existence of the Creator. Perhaps this is due more to fashion and the desire to justify a materialistic attitude to life rather than real observation and comprehension of reality.
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Layla, congratulations and thank you for being the first Muslim to actually attempt to answer my question.
I understand that you want answers, but before being so judgemental perhaps you should step back, research into it and learn to respect the beliefs of Muslims such as myself.
I respect people, if they deserve it. I do not respect religions. I don’t believe in giving people special consideration just for professing belief in a deity.
First of all, it is not just the hair that muslim women cover. They have to dress modestly, covering their arms and legs and not wearing clothes that are too tight or reveal their shape, so that men do not admire them for their beauty but so that they can be seen as intelligent people who are equal to men.
I single out hair coverings in my complaints on this subject because they seem to be the bare minimum required for “modesty” purposes. Some Muslim women wear Western dress along with a head scarf and call that “modest”, and every style of dress more severe than that, up to a burka, always covers the head. The head scarf, or lack thereof, is also usually what is cited in news reports about women being murdered for not being dressed “modestly” enough for their assailants’ personal tastes. My objection applies to the rest of it as well, though.
The objection I have to this line of reasoning has to do with what you believe women and men are, in and of themselves. Are women people? Do they deserve to be treated as people? Do they have a right not to be assaulted? If so, then these things continue to be true no matter what they choose to wear.
If women only deserve to be treated with respect if they wear a head scarf, then they, in fact, do not really deserve to be treated with respect. They can only attempt to purchase respect with their choice of clothing. And, as I’ve said before, if you have to buy your freedom, it ain’t freedom you’re buying.
Secondly, the same applies to men- they should dress modestly and be admired for their personality- generally, men do not make a big deal of their hair and they keep it simple, whereas women often have long hair and straighten/curl it and even use it as a flirting tool-which is why they wear a headscarf and men do not. If you are going to argue that some men do make a big deal of their hair, then there is a cap which some religious muslims wear to cover their heads as well, and also religious men grow beards.
For starters, when was the last time you ever heard of a man being sexually assaulted and the attack being blamed on his clothing? Men are the ones who made these rules in the first place.
As for their hair, I’m tempted to try the argument I’ve used before, which is that women do, in fact, enjoy men’s hair (even if it’s short, hell, a lot of gals have a thing for bald or shaved heads). But I’m dealing with a woman this time instead of a man, so I’m going to talk about the other side:
If a woman has short, plain hair, is she exempted from the hair-covering requirement? I’ve certainly never heard of anything like that, which implies that Muslims think there’s something extra-special about women’s hair in and of itself that makes it sexually provocative even if the woman bearing it doesn’t expend any effort to make it so.
The point is not that muslim women wear headscarves and men do not; the point is that men and women should both dress modestly and be seen as equals and notice eachother’s personalities not looks.
Like I said before, this seems to be largely ignored for men: they are treated with respect whether they choose to wear the little cap or not, and are given a lot more leeway than women for what is considered “modest” in their clothing. From what I’ve ever heard about the male Muslim dress code, they simply have to dress the way most normal, self-respecting men dress anyway. But for a woman, wearing sensible, comfortable clothes isn’t enough, they have to go that much farther to buy their “right” to be treated with respect. Of course, I’ve never been to a Muslim society, so maybe men get harassed on the street for inappropriate clothing all the time. I sort of doubt that, though.
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Layla says:
February 24th, 2008 at 7:46 amWhy do you not respect religions? Is it such a bad thing to have morals, faith and believe in something? Religion is something to be respected because it makes people behave in a way that is good and decent, and it gives people a purpose in life- if there is no religion then what were you put on this earth for? And how can the earth be so complex yet so perfect by some ‘big bang’?
Islam is a beautiful religion, and it is not about making the lives of Muslim women difficult and making them earn their respect while men just immediately have it. The fact is, it is only recently that women have started to be seen as equals to men and even nowadays they are still used as objects. Of course I believe women are people who deserve respect but that is not what everyone believes. It is easy for you to say that women deserve not to be assaulted no matter what they wear which is very true, but what people deserve isn’t always the same as what they get. I’m sure the people living in poverty in Africa deserve not to, but it isn’t that simple. But anyway, we both know that women deserve freedom and equality to men and that is WHY they should cover themselves- so people can see beyond their looks and can see their personality and not view them as objects but as people. That IS freedom! To be judged by nothing but your personality. And yes, women who don’t wear headscarves deserve respect as well but wearing a headscarf would add to respect from men because they are looking at you as a person, not as a woman.
By the way, I am not at all agreeing with the fact that people who don’t wear headscarves are being murdered; it is entirely their choice if they wear a headscarf or not and the people who are killing others have the right idea about wearing the headscarf but are going completely the wrong way about trying to get people to do it. Islam IS a religion of peace and they are sending the absolute WRONG message about it. I think that the right way to get someone to wear a headscarf is to get them to understand the many reasons why they should and the rewards that come with it.
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Muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 10:47 amin replyy to what you sed Some Muslim women wear Western dress along with a head scarf and call that “modest”… thats their choice if they want to dress like that, don’t single it out and say that all muslims do that and that it is one of the rules of Islam… them not dressing modestly.. is how they want to live and doesn’t mean its the way of Islam
and to ‘I respect people, if they deserve it. I do not respect religions. I don’t believe in giving people special consideration just for professing belief in a deity’. . Well you need to respect yourself because adding people on msn.. only to unslt them on their mother and threatening to kill their mother and come to their school isn’t a type of person i think i shud respect.. do yu think thats respectable? and your right aswel.. i only respect people, if they deserve it and you clearly don’t.. i don’t respect you for what your doing.. going out of your way to make a website to interrigate Muslims and give them a bad name just because you feel like it.. that’s immature and unrespectable.
and too ‘For starters, when was the last time you ever heard of a man being sexually assaulted and the attack being blamed on his clothing? Men are the ones who made these rules in the first place’. i have actually herd men been assaulted and have seen it and men usually don’t get assaulted or attacked because theyre are strong and can be feared.. and second of all … men don’t make up these rules, your just using that as an excuse
and also ‘Like I said before, this seems to be largely ignored for men: they are treated with respect whether they choose to wear the little cap or not, and are given a lot more leeway than women for what is considered “modest” in their clothing.’ as i said before.. the reason they are respected anyway is because theyre are men.. and the way the media makes them look and is affecting that.. men are known to be strong and do alot of manly..heavy wieght jobs.. being strong i.e fit, makes men seem superior and respectable and should be feared by… most people wouldn’t stand up to a strong looking man.. why?.. because they are worried they could do somthing to them… and men arn’t as emotional as women… so they do not get affected by words as much….
if there wos a group of men and a group of women who would you be feared more of? Which group would you more likely not to mess with.
Women are seen as not fearful or powerful, eg. have you seen a women president/Government in England? no only Men and why because the country would be feared more and respected… if England went to war with a female president/government… wouldn’t they be laughed at?and you saying that men are respected anyway.. it’s only because of the media NOT because of religion
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Sarah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 10:55 amThe only reason Women wear headscarfs, is so that men will respect them and not look at them as objects, see them as normal people and equal to them and have the same feelings and expectations … until then (which i hope is very soon) women have to wear headscarfs (rules of Islam) … they can take it off when men respect them and see them as equal… do not say they already do, because they clearly don’t NOT until every single men has the same respect for women can they take their headscarfs off.
I hope that makes it more clear to you why they wear it and do not ask, why women wear headscarfs and do not dress modestly with it because that is their opinion on the rule and style and how they deal with it.
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Why do you not respect religions? Is it such a bad thing to have morals, faith and believe in something?
Religious people tend to believe that only religious people have morals and that, because of that, they deserve respect while non-religious people don’t. Non-religious people are, in fact, just as moral and deserving of just as much respect as you are. Your membership in a group does not make you special.
Religion is something to be respected because it makes people behave in a way that is good and decent, and it gives people a purpose in life- if there is no religion then what were you put on this earth for?
Religion does not make people behave in a way that is good and decent. They do that by themselves, and if they are religious, they tend to credit their religion for it. Humans behave because we are social animals. If we behave badly, society breaks down, and we humans depend on being in a society for our survival. Historically, there probably were groups of proto-humans who just couldn’t help themselves killing and raping and stealing from each other. That behavior is precisely why those groups don’t exist anymore. And yes, while there certainly is rape and theft and murder going on among modern humans, it’s primarily socio/psychopaths who do it, and it doesn’t occur at such a level that it prevents society from functioning.
Here’s something to think about if you think religion is what makes people moral: If you suddenly became convinced that your religion isn’t true, would you go out on a killing spree? Certainly not, because you’re a normal, decent human being and have human feelings like empathy for your would-be victims and their families, right? Or, failing that, you would at least not want to go to jail or have the victims’ families retaliate against you? That is what makes humans behave, not some nebulous threat about being punished many years from now in the afterlife.
Atheists believe that this life is whatever we make it to be. And we’d better do it right, because it’s the only one we’re gonna get.
As for why Earth seems to have been created perfectly just for us: Our environment is just right for us because we evolved to live in this environment. That is, we are here precisely because we are well-suited to live here. All the other organisms that weren’t, died out. (and there were many — 99.9% of all the species that have ever lived on Earth are extinct now.)
I see that a couple of people are coming into the moderation queue with similar thoughts about the “women have to wear a headscarf to get respect” thing, so I’m going to cut this off here and address that in another comment.
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Muneerah:
Well you need to respect yourself because adding people on msn.. only to unslt them on their mother and threatening to kill their mother and come to their school isn’t a type of person i think i shud respect.. do yu think thats respectable?
While I do have an MSN account, there is only one person on it — my boyfriend, whom I now live with, making the account completely superfluous. I have not signed on to it in months. You can continue whining about it, but you and I both know you’re making this up because you couldn’t handle the fact that you, a Muslim, couldn’t restrain yourself from threatening physical violence just because someone disagreed with your religion, while I, a godless infidel atheist, can.
If you are, in fact, being harassed, it would seem far more likely that the culprit is one of those low-lifes you hang around with, who have nothing better than to sit at a computer all day making death threats to people who don’t agree with them. All of you give your religion a bad name and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
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SEYHAN =] says:
February 24th, 2008 at 11:27 amwearing hijab is a command from God!…
In fact, there is wisdom behind this heavenly command of hijab and behind Muslim women’s challenge to wear it. It is that in the Islamic culture - like many other cultures - the idea of women’s respectability and virtue is related, among other things, to the propriety of their dress. In Christianity for example, nuns cannot show up without their hijab. Also, regular ladies wear it while attending masses, which is a reflection of self-admission that God wants to see them this way! Also, as far as I know, in Judaism, the most religious faction amongst Jews, namely The Hassidics, have their strict rules about covering women’s bodies. Even in secular societies, some women judges have to cover their heads, during sessions, as a way to show their dignity and self-respect.
You can also tell that hijab is the way Islam neutralizes a woman’s stereotyped role as a mere female, by inciting the society to deal with her as a human being away from her “extra feminine powers”! No wonder then that the majority of Muslim women refuse to let their ‘mill go with all winds’ and that they insist on keeping their Islamic identity. This is regardless of the consistent unfair criticism and sometimes satire against it. They wear hijab, not only in submission to God’s order, but also because their inherent moral code is in full harmony with its philosophy.
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Okay, now, as to the argument that women should wear headscarves so that men can eventually see them as human beings:
Thing is, I do not believe that covering one’s hair or body actually does anything to make men respect you. All it does is remind men that women are sex objects — why else would they need to be covered up? Have you read the things some Muslim men write about women? It’s truly appalling. From where I’m sitting, it seems like the only time women in Muslim countries gain respect is when they start taking off their headdresses, or wearing only half a burka, or uncovering their faces, forcing men to acknowledge that this does not, in fact, entitle men to sexually assault them, and they still have to treat them as human beings whether they want to or not. And they don’t want to, not because they’re something inherently wrong with them that they can’t do it, but because your current system places all of the sexual responsibility on women’s shoulders and none on the men’s. If it’s an accepted fact in society that women don’t deserve respect without a headscarf, then any woman without one is fair game. And don’t think that men who think like this would have any respect for a woman with a headscarf either — she’s just a sex object under a headscarf. At best, she’s temporarily off-limits.
Sorry about the huge paragraph. At any rate, since we all agree that it is men who have the problem here (not being able to respect women), why is it the women who need to be penalized? Personally, I think a better solution would be to make the men stay at home with the windows blacked out. If they go out in public, they should have to be accompanied by two female relatives (two have a better chance than one of being able to restrain him if he goes nuts) and wearing a mask. If he proves that he can behave himself, them maybe we can talk about taking off the mask.
Which brings me to my other main objection to this kind of thing — for pete’s sake, men are not animals! They may like you to think they are so you’ll keep your veil on, but seriously — if men are intrinsically like that, then why is it that in Western countries there aren’t gangs of sex-crazed men roaming the streets? Because, obviously, they can control themselves, if society expects them to.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 11:40 amcassie, i am not making it up… you added me on msn.. on… ‘mutantfishfinger@hotmail.co.uk’ and your msn name being ’sammy the crab’ and when you did add me.. i did not know who you were until you said to me
‘24/02/2008
00:59:39
sammy the crab to ♥[[PєяѕιαиﷲEмρяєѕѕمنزي]]♥ (*)Ambassdor(*) 07846105AskForLastDigits. (L)I Love Seyhan&&AZIZI(L) (*)MY PERSIL IS CONCENTRATED(*): ;D howdy ‘and i realised that English people do not exactly say that and made me think of America… and i thought of you because how you are being rude.
you then said after
‘24/02/2008
01:00:18
sammy the crab to ♥[[PєяѕιαиﷲEмρяєѕѕمنزي]]♥ (*)Ambassdor(*) 07846105AskForLastDigits. (L)I Love Seyhan&&AZIZI(L) (*)MY PERSIL IS CONCENTRATED(*): you have just over the intelligence of a dancing monkey’‘24/02/2008
01:00:44
sammy the crab to ♥[[PєяѕιαиﷲEмρяєѕѕمنزي]]♥ (*)Ambassdor(*) 07846105AskForLastDigits. (L)I Love Seyhan&&AZIZI(L) (*)MY PERSIL IS CONCENTRATED(*): Of londons most disabled people.com ‘and then i realised it MUST be you because.. who would say that? who would say london? because you said in one of the messages on your website.. about you living in the American states and what they believe and i replied, what are you trying to say about The united kingdom? so Clearly it is you and i figured you got my email address from the messages i send on your website because it is required.. although i do not know why… but now it is clear that your email address is required because if you get irrated by the person you can add them on msn and start threatening then.
i then added.. Akhtar.. Seyhan and other people who rote on the website and you continued to be rude to them and then you said
‘24/02/2008
01:04:37
sammy the crab to ♥[[PєяѕιαиﷲEмρяєѕѕمنزي]]♥ (*)Ambassdor(*) 07846105AskForLastDigits. (L)I Love Seyhan&&AZIZI(L) (*)MY PERSIL IS CONCENTRATED(*), ·´`·.¸.»¯`·._·´`·.¸.»سيهان<<·´`·.¸’¯`·._·´`·.¸I۪۫۰ ۰۪۪۫۫L۪۫۰۪۪۪۫۫۫O۪۫۰۪۫V۪۫۰۪۫E۪۫ ۪۫Y۪۫۰۪۫O۪۫۰۪۫ U MUNEERAH 2 F*KIN BITS AZIZI, [b]ﷲ {A}{K}{H}{T}{A}{R}: Im a boywhich i do not know is true or not, you said before ‘While I do have an MSN account, there is only one person on it — my boyfriend, ‘ maybe it was your boyfriend as you claim… either way.. it was immature and unperfessional.
and you say ‘my boyfriend, whom I now live with’ who ever it was who added me on msn… you must have been with your boyfriend if it was him at the time because wen i added you to the convosation with the people who were involved you knew who they were and exactly what they were like. saying
‘24/02/2008
01:03:51
[b]ﷲ {A}{K}{H}{T}{A}{R} has been added to the conversation. ‘when Akhtar was aded to the converstaion you replied with
‘24/02/2008
01:03:51
sammy the crab to ♥[[PєяѕιαиﷲEмρяєѕѕمنزي]]♥ (*)Ambassdor(*) 07846105AskForLastDigits. (L)I Love Seyhan&&AZIZI(L) (*)MY PERSIL IS CONCENTRATED(*), [b]ﷲ {A}{K}{H}{T}{A}{R} : ..Oh dearest akhtar ‘which clearly indicates you know him and remember him
If it wasn’t you (AS YOU SAY AND HOW I AM MAKING IT UP) then how would they know the people i added and know what i was talking about when i talked about your website? It was either you or one of your friends or boyfriend…. and how they got my email.. was obvviously you..because you are the one who has it.
i do not care if i am threatening you because i acan take this to court and take legal action for what you or one of your friends did.
Either way you are in the wrong.and my first question was.. when i entered this website was… what do Atheists believe and you did not exlpain it to me instead just insulted otehr religions and especially Islam and yet i stil don’t know what you believe except you do not believe in god.. but what else.. you have not convinced me and as i said before i am interestted yet you fail to tell me anything about your beliefs
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And, Muneerah, this is the only reason I approved your comment:
Women are seen as not fearful or powerful, eg. have you seen a women president/Government in England? no only Men and why because the country would be feared more and respected… if England went to war with a female president/government… wouldn’t they be laughed at?
Muneerah, you seem young and, frankly, pretty sheltered, so I can understand why you would never have heard about Margaret Thatcher, who was the Prime Minister of the UK from 1979 to 1990. Wikipedia even has this to say about her:
Among other things, she defiantly opposed the Soviet Union, and her tough-talking rhetoric gained her the nickname the “Iron Lady”.[1]
So much for women not being able to be feared or respected.
If you still don’t believe women are capable of leading a country, I direct you to this list of members in the Council of Women World Leaders, which consists of… funnily enough… women world leaders.
I should also mention Benazir Bhutto, former (and late) Prime Minister of Pakistan, Nancy Pelosi, the current Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, and Hillary Clinton, who currently stands a good chance of becoming the Democratic nominee in this year’s Presidential election.
See? Us girls really can do it for ourselves.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 11:54 amcassie im not saying i don’t believe they are not capable, im saying that is what media thinks and puts out.. and tell me why there isn’t a female Prime Minister now? i did know about Magaret Thatcher i have learnt about her and i knew you would say that, but is there a female one now? and yet again you are twisting my words i didn’t say women arn’t feared and respected… that is what is seen, im not saying all women are like that but most are and you cannot dinie it.
and im ONLY talking about the UK and USA do not bring other countries into it o.e Pakistan… because that is partly a muslim country and many other countries are like Iran or Iraq.. whatever way they interpret Islam.
and im not say Females can’t do anything YET again yu put words into my mouth…
and put up the comment i said about you or WHOEVER it was adding me on msn… if it wasn’t you then you wouldn’t mind putting it up and i would respect you if you put it up because you would have proof if i am lying. and i can tell your a type of person who has STRONG beliefs and only goes one way.. and is not easy to try and persuade.. sometimes ignorant, not willing to learn
yet again you stil have not explained what atheists believe
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SEYHAN: If you choose to wear a hijab because you believe your god has commanded you to do so, that’s your prerogative, but that has nothing to do with the issues of sexual harassment of women in Muslim countries, which I have already addressed. Also, while nuns do wear a garment called a habit, there is absolutely no requirement or expectation on Catholic women to become nuns. It is a free choice. In fact, nuns nowadays tend not to wear the full habit anymore, only the headdress plus normal clothes. The headdress marks them as a nun. No one pretends that they’re not human beings without it or that they need to to protect themselves against sexual harassment.
Also, regular Catholic women do not wear a habit to mass. At best, they might dress up a little.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 11:59 amCassie i would like it if you commented on YOU ADDING me on MSN .. please i would like to know what you think
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SEYHAN =] says:
February 24th, 2008 at 12:00 pmU SED…:The headdress marks them as a nun.
THE HIJAB MARKS US AS MUSLIMS!!!
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Muneerah, your powers of logical reasoning are even worse than I ever imagined.
cassie, i am not making it up… you added me on msn.. on… ‘mutantfishfinger@hotmail.co.uk’ and your msn name being ’sammy the crab’ and when you did add me.. i did not know who you were until you said to me
‘24/02/2008
00:59:39
sammy the crab to ♥[[PєяѕιαиﷲEмρяєѕѕمنزي]]♥ (*)Ambassdor(*) 07846105AskForLastDigits. (L)I Love Seyhan&&AZIZI(L) (*)MY PERSIL IS CONCENTRATED(*): ;D howdy ‘and i realised that English people do not exactly say that and made me think of America… and i thought of you because how you are being rude.
Believe it or not, I am not the only person who lives in America. Also, the only people who say “howdy” either live in the south (I don’t) or are characters in cowboy movies.
and then i realised it MUST be you because.. who would say that? who would say london? because you said in one of the messages on your website.. about you living in the American states and what they believe and i replied, what are you trying to say about The united kingdom?
You are not the only person who knows that you live in London. Every person who read that thread, for example, would have figured it out. Furthermore, didn’t you happen to notice that this person was using a .co.uk email address? I would still guess that it was one of your little foul-mouthed school friends. Barring that, someone who lives in the UK, guessed that you live in London (a lot of people do), and said “howdy”.
If you don’t believe me, go ahead and tell MSN. They will tell you the same thing.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 12:14 pmyes cassie but everything i said they knew about it.. i.e your website and they added me straight afta i put that comment… and you could of asked a friend in england to make one.. you have CLEARLY missed the point
i talked about your website and they knew exactly what i was talking about and fighting and swearing back at me, they also knew the people in the convosation… and while we were on msn fighting with someone WHO SEEMED LIKE YOU… no one rote any comments on your website.. because they were clearly busy elsewhere… i.e you on msn.
It is funny how you added me at the same time of night we were discussing/fighting about atheism and religion.. and funny how they knew everything about what we were talking about… and funny how you knew the people who were talking…
Right now i believe that you were the person, because it seems you have thought very carefully about what you were going to say and made a few other facts just to back you up.
as far as i know that person knew everything that was going on, and you knew everything that is going on… and it makes sense that it is you
and all the other people… my friends that commented… that commented, they did not put their real email address and i think i wos the only person who did… and sily me that caused a problem… next time i will not because i do not wnat people.. saying things like….. i will kill your mother and i know where your school is. You had no arguement al you did was insult and swear about mothers and e.t.c
If you do not believe.. all my friends are witnesses and they have proof
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Muneerah:
cassie im not saying i don’t believe they are not capable, im saying that is what media thinks and puts out.. and tell me why there isn’t a female Prime Minister now? i did know about Magaret Thatcher i have learnt about her and i knew you would say that, but is there a female one now? and yet again you are twisting my words i didn’t say women arn’t feared and respected… that is what is seen, im not saying all women are like that but most are and you cannot dinie it.
Muneerah, the media can change, and in fact, it is changing. Society can change, and in fact, it is changing. Women are making progress. You don’t need to throw up your hands and say “we can’t!” just because that is what your religion tells you.
and im ONLY talking about the UK and USA do not bring other countries into it o.e Pakistan… because that is partly a muslim country and many other countries are like Iran or Iraq.. whatever way they interpret Islam.
What about Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton? Do they not count as women, or something? It is a FACT that there are women politicians who are feared and respected. It is also a FACT that the number of women politicians is increasing. You just have to give it time. Hell, you should be encouraged that Pakistan elected a woman Prime Minister. Even in Muslim countries, women can and will make progress. Don’t give up on half the human race just because your society desperately wants you to believe that we’re not capable of anything.
and put up the comment i said about you or WHOEVER it was adding me on msn… if it wasn’t you then you wouldn’t mind putting it up and i would respect you if you put it up because you would have proof if i am lying. and i can tell your a type of person who has STRONG beliefs and only goes one way.. and is not easy to try and persuade.. sometimes ignorant, not willing to learn
I did. And I can tell that even though you’re plainly wrong, I’m never going to get an admission of that or an apology out of you. You’re determined that you’re right and that I’m some evil woman out to get you, and nothing will change your mind.
yet again you stil have not explained what atheists believe
I have answered this multiple times. If you can’t understand what I’ve said, get someone to help you with the big words.
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SEYHAN:
U SED…:The headdress marks them as a nun.
THE HIJAB MARKS US AS MUSLIMS!!!
That is all well and good, but the discussion we’re having is whether a hijab is necessary for women to be seen as human beings. It is not.
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Muneerah:
yes cassie but everything i said they knew about it.. i.e your website and they added me straight afta i put that comment… and you could of asked a friend in england to make one.. you have CLEARLY missed the point
i talked about your website and they knew exactly what i was talking about and fighting and swearing back at me, they also knew the people in the convosation… and while we were on msn fighting with someone WHO SEEMED LIKE YOU… no one rote any comments on your website.. because they were clearly busy elsewhere… i.e you on msn.
Muneerah, I understand you feel the need to feed your paranoia by convincing yourself that it was me, but in fact you have absolutely no evidence that I ever contacted you outside of this website. You posted your email address on a public thread that was getting quite a lot of traffic. Some British person saw your email address and used it to harass you. That’s unfortunate. But go ahead and talk to MSN, and they will tell you that that person’s IP does not match mine, their email address is not mine, and the account was not mine. You seem to have difficulty understanding the concept that there are lots of people on the internet.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 12:34 pm‘Muneerah, the media can change, and in fact, it is changing. Society can change, and in fact, it is changing. Women are making progress. You don’t need to throw up your hands and say “we can’t!” just because that is what your religion tells you.’
cassie read up on islam.. it is not saying that in my religion (Islam) god you are imbred and hardly know anything. who said the media isn’t changing?? and i know it is you ‘chicken girl’ .. stil… give me some examples…
and who sed society isnt changing?… i know it is you ‘chicken girl’… still give me some examples.who said im throwing my hands up? Darling im using a computer and i ddn’t type ‘ women arn’t capable of anying’ and HAH you know nothing…. my religion tells me women arn’t capable of anything?? Then why were they created?
Whats your answer as a ATHEIST… why do you think they were created.. why do you think WE were created.. or maybe you don’t think created is the right term.. tell me what your term is… and what you think i have asked you more than five times now you stil have not answered about what you believe.
‘I did. And I can tell that even though you’re plainly wrong, I’m never going to get an admission of that or an apology out of you. You’re determined that you’re right and that I’m some evil woman out to get you, and nothing will change your mind.’
Your clearly wrong aswel
and i know i won’t get an apology out of you either, im here because i want to stand up for my religion.. i don’t mind if you don’t believe i word i say.. i’m always going to be here to reply… know why? BECAUSE I have belief in my religion.. don’t care if yu don’t like it.. im not trying to convert you HAH.. and im trying to teach you about it because you making this website and judging Muslims by what the media is saying… and it is also changing.. HA HA… and the one thing that is always going to be the same in media.. that IT WILL AFFECT PEOPLE WHO SEE IT and IT WIL ALWAYS TRY AND INFLUENCE YOU and THE GOVERNMENT ALWAYS WILL HAVE A SAY IN THE MEDIA AND HOW IT IS RUN.. and PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS HAVE A SAY IN THE MEDIA… and the media doesn’y say everything does it?…and Cassie.. what ever your real anme might be.. who said i think your a evil woman to get me? i don’t know who you are… all i know is you do not like Muslims, dispise them and your a atheist and you are determined to tell everyone that muslims are bad and become a atheist…
try telling me something about atheism.. you ahven’t said anything that convinces me except you do not believe in god and do not see why everyone thinks a superior being like god can create something so complicated aswell.. like a clock… you said to akhtar.. someone had to of created something so complicated… and you replied if that is so.. then something had to of created Allah… that hurt me extremely and i felt like crying because of that.. saying there is something more superior than Allah… i know why i am Muslim.. i believe in my religion strongly.. i don’t care if you don’t like it but i will not have you telling everyone that it is a mess because Islam is a religion that is growing every day and one of the religions that is worldwide and billions belive in it whether they are Muslim or not.
You do not know much about Islam to talk negativly about it… and i think you are influenced by the media alot….
You constently say my ’school friends’ and i won’t pass GCSEs.. E.T.C
do you know how old i am? next year i will start university and i am well learned and i want you to understand Islam instead of judging it by what Muslims do.. learn the religion not the people
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Layla says:
February 24th, 2008 at 12:36 pmI never said religion was the ONLY thing that makes people behave in a good way, but it certainately helps! Religion creates stronger morals and firmer boundaries; for example it is much more likely you would see an atheist as a teenage mum but much less likely a religious person would be.
Also, why do you think human beings are suited for this environment? Is it just a coincidence that all the tiny details can be so perfect and work together so well? You can’t ignore what is around you, take a look, stop being ignorant, and realise there is no way all of this could happen without someone making it that way.
Now, about this argument about headscarves and covering up. Of course covering up gains you respect! The way you dress reflects your personality- if you wear mini skirts and a revealing top men will take you to be flirtatious person. You shouldnt just put yourself on display for all to see, you should save yourself for that one special person you marry! If you dress in a way that is good and modest, even if you arent a muslim and do not wear a headscarf, you will be more respcted than that person who wears mini skirts all the time. We both know your idea about keeping men in or whatever is ridiculous but Islam doesnt want men and women to be completely separate in society, Islam even encourages young marriages. What would keeping men and women apart do for anyone? The headscarf allows a woman to show her religion and take pride in it, be respected by men and be seen for her personality and not have to stay away from them or worry about whether people like her for her beauty or herself. I’m sure there are many other reasons, but I’m not an expert, I’m just a teenager trying to give you answers the best that I can!
I know men aren’t animals, true religious muslim men treat their wives and every other women with respect and as their equal. However, there are some men who judge people by their looks and the way they dress, quite a lot of men actually. But let me stress that respect from men is not the ONLY reason why muslims wear headscarves, if you want to know more then perhaps you should research into it or ask around! I know that people WANT to wear headscarves, it is not something they are forced into doing. After all, here in the UK no one gets harassed for not wearing a scarf and yet some people still do.
And by the way, in response to what you said to Muneerah, there is no reason for you to be so disrespectful towards her, when she was just stating what she thought to be true. Even if it was not you who added her on MSN, someone did and she obviously believed it to be you- so who are you to judge her for standing her ground? And I dont think her standing her ground is a reason for anybody to say she should be ashamed or is giving her a religon a bad name; she is standing up for herself and her beliefs and is doing a good thing. You have no right to judge her and neither does anyone else.
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who said im throwing my hands up? Darling im using a computer and i ddn’t type ‘ women arn’t capable of anying’ and HAH you know nothing…. my religion tells me women arn’t capable of anything?? Then why were they created?
Your religion, like all three Abrahamic religions, says that women were created to be the servants of men. Your religion says a woman is worth half of a man’s worth, women’s testimony isn’t worth anything in court, and married women don’t have any right to refuse sex from their husbands.
Sorry, but the idea that women are people is extremely recent. It certainly didn’t come from any religion.
Whats your answer as a ATHEIST… why do you think they were created.. why do you think WE were created.. or maybe you don’t think created is the right term.. tell me what your term is… and what you think i have asked you more than five times now you stil have not answered about what you believe.
Did you not see the discussion I had with akhtar in the other thread? Did you not see my response to Layla in this one? Don’t say I haven’t answered your question just because you can’t understand what I said.
try telling me something about atheism.. you ahven’t said anything that convinces me except you do not believe in god and do not see why everyone thinks a superior being like god can create something so complicated aswell.. like a clock… you said to akhtar.. someone had to of created something so complicated… and you replied if that is so.. then something had to of created Allah… that hurt me extremely and i felt like crying because of that.. saying there is something more superior than Allah… i know why i am Muslim.. i believe in my religion strongly.. i don’t care if you don’t like it but i will not have you telling everyone that it is a mess because Islam is a religion that is growing every day and one of the religions that is worldwide and billions belive in it whether they are Muslim or not.
I’m sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts. If the mere application of logic is that hurtful to you, things aren’t looking very good for your religion, are they? I will only convert to your religion if you can logically prove that it is irrefutably true, using real-world evidence. Since you have no intention of doing that, I suggest you stop wasting both of our time.
Have you contacted MSN yet? You want me to be suitably punished for “my” actions, don’t you? Go ahead and contact them. Right now. I have to warn you, though, they might use logic, so be prepared to have your worldview shattered again. Sometimes it isn’t the evil atheist.
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StarrySkunk says:
February 24th, 2008 at 1:00 pmAllah has not zapped Fabio for having hair that women can like looking at or told Muslims to go after him, so Allah is being inconsistent, therefore not being rational, or does not exist.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 1:04 pmYour religion, like all three Abrahamic religions, says that women were created to be the servants of men. Your religion says a woman is worth half of a man’s worth, women’s testimony isn’t worth anything in court, and married women don’t have any right to refuse sex from their husbands.
Where did you get that source from?… it is only true if it is from the quran.. and i know it is not in the Holy Quran because i have read it fully and tell her is dat y fatima the daughter of muhammed saws will lead the women to paradisee, u might not belive dis but dis is another proof dat women are importent.
I highly doubt that you have even touched a Holy Quran
im not wasting my time contacting MSN… i don’t need to punish you.. Allah will do that inshallah.and yes the truth hurts… but that is not true and it only hurts me because you think that.. and ‘I will only convert to your religion if you can logically prove that it is irrefutably true, using real-world evidence.’
if that is so… then why have other people converted?… i converted, as i said in the other discussion.. i converted from Christianity and i have had a better life whether because of my religion or not…and im not trying to convert you.. do not think that… i am simple trying to tell you about Islam… i suggest you read the Quran please.. you can disrespect everything but teh quran… i respect that your atheist.. so why do yu insult Islam? and make a website..People in my mosque respect me even though i am a young women… i give talks and they do not frown on me or stop me from doing anything a man would do… i teach other people about Islam and i am muslim and a young woman and yet they stil do not disrespect me less…. i wear the hijab and it has helped i started wearing a hijab in year 8 my first year of high school… it is funny that i converted to Islam… because when i wos christian every1 was my friend and loved me but wen they found out i turned i converted to a muslim they left me… and i am amazed myself that i have stayed a muslim… but im feel strong about it and i have made close friends and know who my true friends are and it has showed me who the real bad people are.
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Layla:
I never said religion was the ONLY thing that makes people behave in a good way, but it certainately helps! Religion creates stronger morals and firmer boundaries; for example it is much more likely you would see an atheist as a teenage mum but much less likely a religious person would be.
Provide statistics, please. I know that in America it’s the other way around, because the religious kids have been taught not to use condoms.
Also, why do you think human beings are suited for this environment? Is it just a coincidence that all the tiny details can be so perfect and work together so well? You can’t ignore what is around you, take a look, stop being ignorant, and realise there is no way all of this could happen without someone making it that way.
I already explained this. Our environment doesn’t seem like the perfect one for us because it was created just for us, it seems that way because we are the perfect creatures to live in this environment. All the other creatures that weren’t well-suited are dead.
Now, about this argument about headscarves and covering up. Of course covering up gains you respect! The way you dress reflects your personality- if you wear mini skirts and a revealing top men will take you to be flirtatious person. You shouldnt just put yourself on display for all to see, you should save yourself for that one special person you marry! If you dress in a way that is good and modest, even if you arent a muslim and do not wear a headscarf, you will be more respcted than that person who wears mini skirts all the time.
Interesting false dichotomy you’ve got there. Most women who aren’t wearing headscarves aren’t dressing like streetwalkers. They wear sensible, comfortable clothing. Why is it that a woman in jeans and a tee-shirt is automatically “on display” to you just because her arms and her head are uncovered?
We both know your idea about keeping men in or whatever is ridiculous but Islam doesnt want men and women to be completely separate in society, Islam even encourages young marriages.
Of course that idea is ridiculous. It’s ridiculous because it shouldn’t be necessary. Men should be expected and required by law to behave themselves. It is not women’s responsibility to “not get themselves raped”. It is men’s responsibilty to not rape women. The cultures where women are asked to cover themselves up so they can be seen as people are the only ones who have such a problem with this concept.
And by the way, in response to what you said to Muneerah, there is no reason for you to be so disrespectful towards her, when she was just stating what she thought to be true. Even if it was not you who added her on MSN, someone did and she obviously believed it to be you- so who are you to judge her for standing her ground? And I dont think her standing her ground is a reason for anybody to say she should be ashamed or is giving her a religon a bad name; she is standing up for herself and her beliefs and is doing a good thing. You have no right to judge her and neither does anyone else.
Have you read the other thread? (I don’t blame you if you haven’t, it’s a monstrosity.) Muneerah and her little friends gave up any respect they ever deserved to get from me when they decided to come en masse onto my blog, call me a bitch and a whore and say they’re going to “get” me and “sort me out” and say they want to shove my head down a loo, and cut off my head and all sorts of wonderful, respectful things.
Why do you think I should just ignore all that and give them respect they clearly have not earned just because they have professed belief in a religion?
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 1:14 pmOf course that idea is ridiculous. It’s ridiculous because it shouldn’t be necessary. Men should be expected and required by law to behave themselves. It is not women’s responsibility to “not get themselves raped”. It is men’s responsibilty to not rape women. The cultures where women are asked to cover themselves up so they can be seen as people are the only ones who have such a problem with this concept.
wel cassie if that is yur apinion THEN why dont yu make a laww that men shud behave themselves?? YEH is it that simple?? no so why talk complete bullshit and yur talking about men now and how they shud be respnosible well im going to keep wearing a scarf until all men RESPECT ME and i prefer to be 1% more safe from getting raped than less. who sed women in jeans and a t-shirt are revealing you completely are missing the point, your going opposite from everything Layla is saying and if i wos Layla i wud think yu were completely dumb and not answering her question
and if yu think beliveing in a religion is not respectable then i won’t respect that yu believe in atheism
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 1:16 pmHave you read the other thread? (I don’t blame you if you haven’t, it’s a monstrosity.) Muneerah and her little friends gave up any respect they ever deserved to get from me when they decided to come en masse onto my blog, call me a bitch and a whore and say they’re going to “get” me and “sort me out” and say they want to shove my head down a loo, and cut off my head and all sorts of wonderful, respectful things.
and what is your website here for… am i not invited to have my sayy.. after all it is about muslims and you have insulted us aswell MORE THAN WE have.. by our religion… so compared to us yu’ve done wayy more and who said im going to get yu?? i can’t be bothered yu live in America… thats longg i’ll jus pray to Allah to make yu go on the right path and not think all muslims are rude and disrupted as i sed before.. don’t judge the people of teh religion JUDGE the religion
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 1:20 pmand you didn’t answer back from all the comments i said from teh Holy Quran.. teh hadeths you cannot argue with them because they are in teh Holy Quran
you coundn’t answer the facts that i put about the Holy Quran…
whta do yu expect to get out of this?? and i enjoy standing up for my religion it gives me pleasure to knwo i tried.. Allah will know on the day of judgement i i tried. -
Muneerah:
Where did you get that source from?… it is only true if it is from the quran.. and i know it is not in the Holy Quran because i have read it fully and tell her is dat y fatima the daughter of muhammed saws will lead the women to paradisee, u might not belive dis but dis is another proof dat women are importent.
From your very own “holy” koran.
im not wasting my time contacting MSN… i don’t need to punish you.. Allah will do that inshallah.
In other words, you admit that it wasn’t me, but you refuse to admit that you were wrong.
if that is so… then why have other people converted?… i converted, as i said in the other discussion.. i converted from Christianity and i have had a better life whether because of my religion or not…and im not trying to convert you.. do not think that… i am simple trying to tell you about Islam… i suggest you read the Quran please.. you can disrespect everything but teh quran… i respect that your atheist.. so why do yu insult Islam? and make a website..
People have converted to other religions for various reasons. Some emotional, some because they bought one of the various apologetic arguments that have been put forth for various religions. I have told you what it will take to convert me. You clearly will not be satisfied unless I kowtow to you and tell you what you want to hear: that your religion is right and everyone else is wrong. You’ll have to tell that to yourself, because you won’t be getting it from me unless you prove it. I insult Islam because I can. It is my right. Just like it’s your right to throw a hissy fit and call me names because you don’t like it when people disagree with you.
People in my mosque respect me even though i am a young women… i give talks and they do not frown on me or stop me from doing anything a man would do… i teach other people about Islam and i am muslim and a young woman and yet they stil do not disrespect me less…. i wear the hijab and it has helped i started wearing a hijab in year 8 my first year of high school… it is funny that i converted to Islam… because when i wos christian every1 was my friend and loved me but wen they found out i turned i converted to a muslim they left me… and i am amazed myself that i have stayed a muslim… but im feel strong about it and i have made close friends and know who my true friends are and it has showed me who the real bad people are.
Good for you. If you’re happy being a Muslim, then be a Muslim. You shouldn’t need other people to pat you on the back in order to feel good about your decision. So quit expecting me to do it.
wel cassie if that is yur apinion THEN why dont yu make a laww that men shud behave themselves?? YEH is it that simple??
Believe it or not, Western countries actually do have laws against rape. When women accuse men of raping them, the men are taken to court where the police and the attorneys look at all the evidence and if the man is found guilty, he goes to jail. As opposed to Muslim countries where men can only be convicted of rape if there were four male Muslim witnesses to the crime and the victim will be accused of being a slut who “wanted it” if even an inch of ankle was showing under her burka.
and if yu think beliveing in a religion is not respectable then i won’t respect that yu believe in atheism
People deserve or don’t deserve respect based on their actions, not based on their membership in a group. You do not get special consideration for believing in a god. If you go apeshit at people and threaten to beat them up and call them names just because they don’t belong to your religion, then you do not deserve my respect. Period. Deal with it.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 1:38 pmI think you have clearly not earned respect.. you say how women in Islam are seen as low.. muslims are terrorists… they cause disruption.. they won’t let women free.. they say men are morte superior.. you only single out Muslims and Islam and judge the peopel who believe in the religion not teh religion.. which is plain stupidity …you say allah is not the only superior one… you insult me on msn… you change all the subjects my friends and i talk about and you insult my hand writing… i do not know how old you are but i have prooved everything you as wrong .. women are respected in Islam i prooved it by a hadeth and id you do not know what a hadeth is it is…hadeeth is evidence used from the quran by the prophet and his family (peace be upon them) and muslims arn’t terrorists…terrorist is what people think they are.. for exmaple… when some is fighting for something… you either cal them a FREDOM FIGHTER or a TERRORIST.. it depends on yur opinion.. there is no such thing as a muslim terrorist if there is then theres such thing as a christian terrorist, a atheist terrorist, a hindu terrorist… you don’t see peopel saying them doo yu?? instead when they say terrorist they think MUSLIM straight aaway WHY? because of the media. You keep deleteing what my friends comment on.. is it because their questions are tooo hard? am i too easy? i don’t mind what you think as i said im standing up for my religion . Personally i think YU are pathetic to make a website like this and a pray Allah forgives yu and don’t say.. di dnt want yur forgivness or Aallahs.. coz im going to ask him anywway because i feel pity and i am sad of what you see muslims and Islam as
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 1:47 pmFrom your very own “holy” koran.
that is from a website… it is not from the Quran.. why don’t you go buy a quran or borrow from a friend and find all that in there… lots of websites say false things.. that say stuf about muslims… and its different to what people think they make up thinks even words from teh quran or hadeths..
and i cannot believe yu are that ignorant enough to go to a website and not to a actually quran.. casie that is not evidence.In other words, you admit that it wasn’t me, but you refuse to admit that you were wrong.
i believe it was you and i am not wrong otherwise i would be strong enough to say it.
People have converted to other religions for various reasons. Some emotional, some because they bought one of the various apologetic arguments that have been put forth for various religions. I have told you what it will take to convert me. You clearly will not be satisfied unless I kowtow to you and tell you what you want to hear: that your religion is right and everyone else is wrong. You’ll have to tell that to yourself, because you won’t be getting it from me unless you prove it. I insult Islam because I can. It is my right. Just like it’s your right to throw a hissy fit and call me names because you don’t like it when people disagree with you.
and those are the same reasons yu became a atheist.. or believe in it
and its just like yur right to throw a hissy fit and make a website against a religion yu dinie to b right and because yu don’t like it that im fighting backGood for you. If you’re happy being a Muslim, then be a Muslim. You shouldn’t need other people to pat you on the back in order to feel good about your decision. So quit expecting me to do it.
again words into m y mouth.. wnat me to say it again?? ok… im only telling you so yu understand not al muslims are ignorant and cause disruption.. and im not ganna pat yu on teh back bcoz yur atheist and don’t like muslims.. well done you successfully made a website against muslims.. darling theres loads of websites like this… get over it.
Believe it or not, Western countries actually do have laws against rape. When women accuse men of raping them, the men are taken to court where the police and the attorneys look at all the evidence and if the man is found guilty, he goes to jail. As opposed to Muslim countries where men can only be convicted of rape if there were four male Muslim witnesses to the crime and the victim will be accused of being a slut who “wanted it” if even an inch of ankle was showing under her burka.
really? welll if thats true then why do they stil rape?
and so what if tahts a rule in a muslims country why you stereotyping? who cares thats there country tehy should deal with it, Allah can sort them out if thats his plan.
People deserve or don’t deserve respect based on their actions, not based on their membership in a group. You do not get special consideration for believing in a god. If you go apeshit at people and threaten to beat them up and call them names just because they don’t belong to your religion, then you do not deserve my respect. Period. Deal with it.
get over teh fact i called you a few names you did worse.. and if deserve or don’t deserve respect based on their actions, not based on their membership in a group, then why are yu judging muslims and not the religion?
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Layla says:
February 24th, 2008 at 1:53 pmAbout what you said to Muneerah:
‘Your religion, like all three Abrahamic religions, says that women were created to be the servants of men. Your religion says a woman is worth half of a man’s worth, women’s testimony isn’t worth anything in court, and married women don’t have any right to refuse sex from their husbands.
Sorry, but the idea that women are people is extremely recent. It certainly didn’t come from any religion.’
I do not know where you got these ideas from but they are completely wrong. What exactly made you believe this? Women are supposed to be the servants of men? Of course they aren’t! Women are precious and just as valuable as men, and men and woman are complete equals. Women ARE people, and Islam gives them the rights that the world has been denying them, and tries to get across the message that women are in face human beings. Anyway, can you tell me how women are servants of men? If you look at our Holy Prophets and Imams who are all leaders you would know that none of them would let their wife cook or clean for them while they sat around doing nothing. They would do their equal share- when Muslims get married it is all about giving and taking, working together and SHARING, whether that be in money, jobs or responsiblities.
Also, married women as well as single women all have rights. They can refuse sex if they want to, because they can’t be forced to do something they dont want to do by their husbands. Women shouldnt be made to do something just because they are a woman. They should stand up for themselves and what they believe in and there are so many examples of great women in Islam who did just that.
You may believe all of what you said is true in Islam but it certainately is not; it may be what some people believe but it is not what the religion says they should believe. Therefore, that is a fault of the people who believe it, not the religion itself.
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JB says:
February 24th, 2008 at 2:09 pmYou constently say my ’school friends’ and i won’t pass GCSEs.. E.T.C
I am the one who provided advice on writing well for your GCSEs, as I know what a GCSE is and ChickenGirl lives in a country with a wholly different set of examinations. If you want your comments to seem literate, then please phrase them intelligently and do not demand that everyone translate their comments into “teen speak” in order to relieve you of the need to consult a dictionary. I have said before that your poor writing and use of threats reflect on you alone, and they make you look incredibly bad.
And before you start making false accusations against me because I live in the same country as you: I have not used Hotmail or MSN Messenger and would certainly not contact you through such a medium, much less threaten you or speak in such incomprehensible terms.
By the way, I am still waiting for an apology for the death threat you issued against me.
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lpetrich says:
February 24th, 2008 at 2:11 pmmuneerah, Layla, you might want to ask yourself where all the female Muslim leaders are. There are some, here and there, but not very many, and none in a Muslim country, as far as I know. Certainly not among the religious leaders of Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Layla: Religion creates stronger morals and firmer boundaries; for example it is much more likely you would see an atheist as a teenage mum but much less likely a religious person would be.
Me: Where’s the evidence for that claim?
And what would you think of a professional virgin who lies, cheats, steals, and does other nasty nonsexual things?
Layla: Also, why do you think human beings are suited for this environment? Is it just a coincidence that all the tiny details can be so perfect and work together so well? You can’t ignore what is around you, take a look, stop being ignorant, and realise there is no way all of this could happen without someone making it that way.
Me: What does that have to do with what we’re discussing?
That seems like the old watches-need-watchmakers argument. Not only does it have lots of counterexamples, it was successfully refuted by Charles Darwin with his principle of natural selection. Consider a puddle in a hole — that puddle is so perfectly fit to that hole’s shape that it seems like that hole was carefully constructed to make that shape of puddle.
And Layla, even if there is a god, what makes you so sure that that entity agrees with you 100%? What makes you so sure that some other religion isn’t right about that entity? Or that any religion at all is right about that entity?
Layla: Now, about this argument about headscarves and covering up. Of course covering up gains you respect!
I’ve seen how much “respect” women get in strict Muslim societies, despite being thoroughly covered up. None at all. How is it that Hillary Clinton gets MUCH more respect from the men around her than most women in such countries get from the men around them?
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that is from a website… it is not from the Quran.. why don’t you go buy a quran or borrow from a friend and find all that in there… lots of websites say false things.. that say stuf about muslims… and its different to what people think they make up thinks even words from teh quran or hadeths..
and i cannot believe yu are that ignorant enough to go to a website and not to a actually quran.. casie that is not evidence.Did you happen to notice the little blue numbers next to all the statements in the list? They are links to the verses in the Koran that say those things. Try clicking on them.
really? welll if thats true then why do they stil rape?
Because humans aren’t perfect and some men still have the tendency to commit rape. However, in Western countries we can control it enough that women are allowed to participate in society without having to live in fear of being raped and killed.
and so what if tahts a rule in a muslims country why you stereotyping? who cares thats there country tehy should deal with it, Allah can sort them out if thats his plan.
See, that’s the difference between you and me. You don’t care what happens to your fellow human beings in this life. I do, because it’s the only one we get.
get over teh fact i called you a few names you did worse.. and if deserve or don’t deserve respect based on their actions, not based on their membership in a group, then why are yu judging muslims and not the religion?
What a perverted belief system you have, that you think anyone who disagrees with you deserves to get death threats. This is exactly why I don’t respect you or your religion. You will never be capable of interacting with your fellow human beings in any productive way until you can get over yourself and accept that other people have the right to disagree with you.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 2:23 pmdo not demand that everyone translate their comments into “teen speak”
first of all that was not me who said it jus as i accidently made a mistake thinking she said it.
and who are you? i didn’t accuse you of adding me on msn and if it was you then it was extrememly immature and uninteligent
By the way, I am still waiting for an apology for the death threat you issued against me.
and by the way.. what death threat? im only talking about Islam and how all of you think its a religion of disruption and i want to make it clear that, that is wrong and Islam is a religion of peace and ‘chiken girl’ repeats false things.. especialy fro teh quran.. she has no research she got it from a website.. not teh holy quran doesnt she know theres people in the world that lie? and make up things to proove their point.. don’t try saying i do that because all i have said on this website is true even the ‘msn issue’ whether it was you or not.. it just shows how ignorant people can be.
muneerah, Layla, you might want to ask yourself where all the female Muslim leaders are. There are some, here and there, but not very many, and none in a Muslim country, as far as I know. Certainly not among the religious leaders of Saudi Arabia and Iran.
yet again your’re referring to other countries… and you might wnat to ask yourself what is the point of this website? and reason being there is not many.. because the media make the muslims sound bad and untrustworthy so its hardder for them to get high famous places.
Me: Where’s the evidence for that claim?
and wheres the evidence in anything ‘chiken girl’ is saying? shes just using other peopels opnion I.E media
And Layla, even if there is a god, what makes you so sure that that entity agrees with you 100%? What makes you so sure that some other religion isn’t right about that entity? Or that any religion at all is right about that entity?
its called BELIEF.. what makes yu so sure.. theres no god? don’t use science..remember your a atheist
I’ve seen how much “respect” women get in strict Muslim societies, despite being thoroughly covered up. None at all. How is it that Hillary Clinton gets MUCH more respect from the men around her than most women in such countries get from the men around them?
and ive sen how much ”respect” women get non strict muslim societies, despite being ”NON MUSLIM”
and how is it that mother mary got so much more respect than Hillary CLinton? -
Layla:
I do not know where you got these ideas from but they are completely wrong. What exactly made you believe this? Women are supposed to be the servants of men? Of course they aren’t! Women are precious and just as valuable as men, and men and woman are complete equals. Women ARE people, and Islam gives them the rights that the world has been denying them, and tries to get across the message that women are in face human beings. Anyway, can you tell me how women are servants of men? If you look at our Holy Prophets and Imams who are all leaders you would know that none of them would let their wife cook or clean for them while they sat around doing nothing. They would do their equal share- when Muslims get married it is all about giving and taking, working together and SHARING, whether that be in money, jobs or responsiblities.
Layla, you feel free to believe these things because you live in a society that considers women to be human beings. Read your Koran:
2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).
2:228 And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
2:282 And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one erreth (though forgetfulness) the other will remember.
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
4:43 And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.
4:98 Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.
4:176 And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females.
Any equality women have in Muslim societies, they fought for and earned in direct opposition to their religion. Be grateful you live in a country that has largely given religion up.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 2:32 pmDid you happen to notice the little blue numbers next to all the statements in the list? They are links to the verses in the Koran that say those things. Try clicking on them.
yes darling i went on themm…. how bout yu go to teh actualyy quran a book.. feel it with your hands and look.. the internet is not always trustworthy
Because humans aren’t perfect and some men still have the tendency to commit rape. However, in Western countries we can control it enough that women are allowed to participate in society without having to live in fear of being raped and killed.
are you sure about that?? why are you talking to me like i live in a muslim country.. i live in the UK, stil im nto free whyy?? because peopel are racist to muslims WHYY??? the media
yes human beings arnt perfect you said it yurself.See, that’s the difference between you and me. You don’t care what happens to your fellow human beings in this life. I do, because it’s the only one we get.
don’t try and make this personal ‘chiken girl’. i do care thats just not my concern and its what the individual person does i can’t change that .. i can try though and i try to help people and thats all that matters.. i can’t exactly go to there country and do a march…
What a perverted belief system you have, that you think anyone who disagrees with you deserves to get death threats. This is exactly why I don’t respect you or your religion. You will never be capable of interacting with your fellow human beings in any productive way until you can get over yourself and accept that other people have the right to disagree with you.
wait? when did i say you can’t disagree with me.. again words into my mouth… you like twisting things don’t you.. cheeky ‘chiken gal’ can’t get around like that.. and if i can’t be capable of interacting with fellow human beings in any productive way then how come im doing it with you? and if soo.. same with you… becauyse you can’t get over the fact that im fighting for my beliefs
think whatever yu wnat darling.. im just exlpaining islam and if yu wanna twist it SO bee it i don’t mind.. as i said… i tried -
Layla says:
February 24th, 2008 at 2:34 pmThere may not be many Muslim leaders of our time, but in the history of islam there have been many. Look through the Quran and you will find many examples. For example, Bibi Zainab. She was a great woman who stood up for herself and what she believed in, and she stood up to one man especially who was a very bad man.
I admit I do not have evidence for the claim I made about teenage mums; perhaps I shouldnt have said that. But I am sure if you look for it you will find evidence. But you are taking it the wrong way, if someone was a virgin and did all of those bad things then that does not make them a good person, and that is not what I am trying to say.
You talk about the puddle and the water fitting perfectly inside. The world is much more complex than a puddle. Water is one thing and a hole is another; putting them together is very simple. Putting the whole world together wouldnt be so easy.
Again, it is the people in the countries not the religion islam itself that is at fault here for not respecting women. If they were to follow what the Quran and so many messengers of Allah have said they would respect women and treat them as their equals.
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muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 2:39 pmi am going to go for now and do my studies because i have work and college tomorrow to attend… this is getting quite interesting because other people are joining in
i am going now because it is 8.00pm in the UK and although it is very early for you in the USA.. i will come bac when i have finished my studies
thankyu for this discussion… is it ok if i can publish it? because im in contact with publishers and this is something that relates to what i want to do in my future, and this will help. Thankyu, i won’t put a bad name, i’ll let the people decide for themselves.
thankyu muneerah
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yes darling i went on themm…. how bout yu go to teh actualyy quran a book.. feel it with your hands and look.. the internet is not always trustworthy
Why don’t you try looking them up in your Koran and telling me if they’ve been misquoted on the website? I’m sure the webmaster of SAQ would appreciate the correction, being an intellectually honest person.
wait? when did i say you can’t disagree with me.. again words into my mouth… you like twisting things don’t you.. cheeky ‘chiken gal’ can’t get around like that.. and if i can’t be capable of interacting with fellow human beings in any productive way then how come im doing it with you? and if soo.. same with you… becauyse you can’t get over the fact that im fighting for my beliefs
think whatever yu wnat darling.. im just exlpaining islam and if yu wanna twist it SO bee it i don’t mind.. as i said… i tried You seem to be confused about what this website is. This is not “ChickenGirl’s Muslim free-for-all, please come over here and threaten her and harass her until she converts to your religion!” This is my personal blog. That means you are coming here, to my personal property, and threatening and proselytizing. Because you can’t handle the fact that I am allowed to criticize Islam on my own blog. You need to just accept that what you want is not going to happen.
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Layla says:
February 24th, 2008 at 2:45 pmWhat you said was in the Quran is not true. I know for a fact that Islam is not a sexist religion and that men and women are absolute equals. I attend a mosque regularly, attend lectures and there is a lot of emphasis put on the fact men and women are equals and women are NOT put down or oppressed in Islam the way that athiests say they are.
I don’t know if you knew this but there are many different interpretations of the Quran done by different people. The Quran is poetic and beautiful book in a beautiful language, Arabic, and cannot be translated totally exact. If you think this is actually from the Quran then i can understand your reasoning, but I do not believe it is. Allah simply would not write that, and I have faith in that. You have got a translation that is not true or a website which has twisted the words of the Quran.
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muneerah:
i am going to go for now and do my studies because i have work and college tomorrow to attend… this is getting quite interesting because other people are joining in
i am going now because it is 8.00pm in the UK and although it is very early for you in the USA.. i will come bac when i have finished my studies
thankyu for this discussion… is it ok if i can publish it? because im in contact with publishers and this is something that relates to what i want to do in my future, and this will help. Thankyu, i won’t put a bad name, i’ll let the people decide for themselves.
thankyu muneerah
The person who thinks it’s A-OK to camp out on someone’s blog, swear at them, threaten to beat them up, and cut off their head, and who is paranoid and self-absorbed enough to think that the random British person who harassed them must be the same person as the American that she was just cussing out on her own blog just because said random Brit happened to say “howdy”? You think I’m going to let you quotemine me so you can publish something about how the poor little Muslim girl was only defending her poor, defenseless religion and was threatened and harassed by the evil atheist witch when we both know it was the other way around?
Do you think I was born yesterday?
I don’t like you. Get out.
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I don’t know if you knew this but there are many different interpretations of the Quran done by different people. The Quran is poetic and beautiful book in a beautiful language, Arabic, and cannot be translated totally exact. If you think this is actually from the Quran then i can understand your reasoning, but I do not believe it is. Allah simply would not write that, and I have faith in that. You have got a translation that is not true or a website which has twisted the words of the Quran.
The problem is that there are many Muslim groups who do believe that that’s what the Koran says. Check out Afghanistan for a prime example. If every Muslim were like you, there would be no problem.
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Layla says:
February 24th, 2008 at 2:58 pmOK, so people believe that is what the Quran says. That does not mean it is Islam’s fault. I completely agree with you with a lot of things, but just like a lot of people you are listening to what the Media says about Muslims and not what the religion says. Forget the people, and think about the actual religion. It is a religion of peace that makes total sense, and I’m very proud to be a muslim and happy if I may have changed your opinion on it or others that have seen this.
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JB says:
February 24th, 2008 at 2:58 pmFirstly, I did not state that I was accused of saying anything on MSN Messenger. As Manal has accused ChickenGirl on the basis of speculation rather than evidence, I sought to specify that I did not send them.
As for the demand that people speak in “teen language”, Manal wrote the following at 10:10am (CST) on February 23:
UMM DIDNT QUITE GET THAT FRIENDLY COMMENT OF YOURS,
WHY NOT TRANSLATE IT,IN TEEEN LANGUAGE!!!As for the threats issued against me, Manal wrote the following at 4:43pm (CST) on February 21:
shut your mouth watch me change my computer ip address and i dont live in d netherlands u dum shit yuur gnnaaa get killed gimme ur email so i cn sort yu u racist hoe!
I said previously, that statement was made subsequent to my first post. It specifically referenced my statement about Manal’s IP, suggesting that Manal’s threats about being ‘killed’ and ’sort[ed]‘ were directed at me.
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Layla:
OK, so people believe that is what the Quran says. That does not mean it is Islam’s fault. I completely agree with you with a lot of things, but just like a lot of people you are listening to what the Media says about Muslims and not what the religion says. Forget the people, and think about the actual religion. It is a religion of peace that makes total sense, and I’m very proud to be a muslim and happy if I may have changed your opinion on it or others that have seen this.
Like I said, I don’t give respect to religions, only people. I think you’re a perfectly nice and good and moral person. When I’m not having to deal with people like Muneerah and her friends, I’m even willing to believe that most Muslims are nice and good and moral people like you, who ascribe to your interpretation of the Koran.
Unfortunately, there also seem to be a lot of thin-skinned psychos, and I will continue to be disturbed by them and oppose their beliefs.
This whole discussion has gotten me a bit burned out, and I do think I’ll lay off the Muslims for a while. I plan to read and deconstruct some Christian apologist literature instead.
But when I see psycho hateful Muslims in the future I will remember to consider that they are a minority. Thank you. -
Muneerah says:
February 24th, 2008 at 3:44 pmi apologise that i have threatened you and i apologie on behalf of my friends.. although it is not my
October 14th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
She asks me why
I’m just a hairy guy
I’m hairy noon and night
Hair that’s a fright
I’m hairy high and low
Don’t ask me why
Don’t know
It’s not for lack of break
Like the Grateful Dead
Darling
Gimme head with hair
Long beautiful hair
Shining, gleaming,
Streaming, flaxen, waxen
Give me down to there hair
Shoulder length or longer
Here baby, there mama
Everywhere daddy daddy
Hair, hair, hair, hair, hair, hair, hair
Flow it, show it
Long as God can grow it
My hair
Let it fly in the breeze
And get caught in the trees
Give a home to the fleas in my hair
A home for fleas
A hive for bees
A nest for birds
There ain’t no words
For the beauty, the splendor, the wonder
Of my…
Hair, hair, hair, hair, hair, hair, hair
Flow it, show it
Long as God can grow it
My hair
I want it long, straight, curly, fuzzy
Snaggy, shaggy, ratty, matty
Oily, greasy, fleecy
Shining, gleaming, streaming
Flaxen, waxen
Knotted, polka-dotted
Twisted, beaded, braided
Powdered, flowered, and confettied
Bangled, tangled, spangled, and spaghettied!
Oh say can you see
My eyes if you can
Then my hair’s too short
Down to here
Down to there
Down to where
It stops by itself
They’ll be ga ga at the go go
When they see me in my toga
My toga made of blond
Brilliantined
Biblical hair
My hair like Jesus wore it
Hallelujah I adore it
Hallelujah Mary loved her son
Why don’t my mother love me?
Hair, hair, hair, hair, hair, hair, hair
Flow it, show it
Long as God can grow it
My hair, hair, hair, hair, hair, hair, hair
Flow it, show it
Long as God can grow it
My hair